From: B.K. Giri Maharaja
Date: April 3, 2008
To: Ratnanabha das
Subject: Re: Question's

Dear Ratnanabha Prabhu,

Please accept my humble dandavat pranams in remembrance of our Divine Masters.

I have studied your email carefully and, while I think I know what you want, it is not so clear.

I did not want to keep you waiting any longer for a response, however, so I will tell you what little I know from memory and what I can ascertain through some research.

Srila Sridhar Maharaja told us there are, I believe, 5 tattvas that are very difficult to understand. I don't recall all of them but, Shiva tattva was one. So, already you have introduced a subject that Srila Guru Maharaja warned us is very difficult.

Fortunately, you have already done some research yourself and offered a variety of thoughts descriptive of Shiva. Your confusion seems to be harmonizing all of them as they appear diverse and in some instances contradictory. They are not, but may appear so due to insufficient knowledge of the subject, which we both admit.

I searched many of Srila Sridhar Maharaja's books to refresh my memory of the ideas I'm stating here but could not find the references I sought. I assume, therefore, that what I remember is from hearing from him directly or from a tape. As such, I cannot offer a quotation to support all my statements.

That said, another item I recall is that Srila Guru Maharaja said Shiva has two aspects one residing in the spiritual world and one in the material. This I will explain below.

The confusion, as I see it, lies in the fact that when the term "Shiva" is used, it is often done without reference to which aspect of Shiva is being referred to.

There is a Shiva Loka in the spiritual sky where the eternal, divine aspect of Shiva as some particular shakti of Krishna resides with his followers.

"We are interested in understanding this gradation: what is the Viraja river, what is the spiritual sky, the planet of Lord Shiva, the Vaikuntha world of Vishnu, Lord Rama's Ayodhya, and then Krsna in Dwaraka, Mathura, and Vrndavana? We want to know the realistic view of the whole gradation of devotional thought." –SGHG

There is another Shiva Loka within the material universe where Sri Shiva, as a demigod and devotee of the Lord "vaisnavanam yatha sambhuh", resides with his wife goddess Parvati and their followers.

"I have so much indifference towards this world that I am mainly interested in knowledge and penance; This holds the better portion of my interest. Whatever little inclination I have for devotional service to Narayana is very negligible. Sometimes I have such an apathetic spirit towards Narayana that I even fight with Him in favor of one of my disciples! I am disgusted with my position. Penance, power, mystic yoga perfection, and indifference to the world; that is my business." Srila Sridhar Maharaj stating Lord Shiva's talk with Narada –SSK

"Devotee: The conditioned soul has some attraction to Lord Shiva in Mahesa Dhama. What is Lord Shiva's posi­tion?
 

Srila Guru Maharaj: His position is as a master of this Maya, Illusory Potency. He is not a slave of misunder­standing. Although he remains in the relativity of mis­understanding, he remains in a masterly position." –SGD Vol. 2

Here in a letter from Srila Swami Maharaja the question is answered very nicely:

"Regarding your question, you may refer to Adi-lila, Chapter 6, Text 79 along with the purport, (Caitanya-caritamrta). The answer is there. The basic understanding is that Sada-Shiva is an expansion of Maha-Vishnu and that same Sada-Shiva incarnates as Advaitacarya. Therefore, since Advaitacarya is an incarnation of Sada-Shiva who is non-different from Maha-Vishnu, we can say that Advaitacarya is an incarnation of Maha-Vishnu. It can be said both ways, that He is an incarnation of Sada-Shiva or Maha-Vishnu." –Letter to: Mr. Vincent Karl - Mayapur 6 April, 1975

And, from the Adi-lila, Chapter 6,Text 79:

"ananta brahmande rudra -- sadasivera amsa
 

gunavatara tenho, sarva-deva-avatamsa
 

TRANSLATION
 

Rudra, who is an expansion of SadaShiva and who appears in unlimited universes, is also a gunavatara [qualitative incarnation] and is the ornament of all the demigods in the endless universes.
 

PURPORT
 

... Sometimes it is found that Rudra is compared to Brahma and considered a living entity. But when Rudra is explained to be a partial expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is compared to Sesa. Lord Shiva is therefore simultaneously an expansion of Lord Vishnu and, in his capacity for annihilating the creation, one of the living entities. As an expansion of Lord Vishnu he is called Hara, and he is transcendental to the material qualities, but when he is in touch with tamo-guna he appears contaminated by the material modes of nature. This is explained in Srimad-Bhagavatam and the Brahma-samhita. In Srimad-Bhagavatam, Tenth Canto, it is stated that Lord Rudra is always associated with the material nature when she is in the neutral, unmanifested stage, but when the modes of material nature are agitated he associates with material nature from a distance. In the Brahma-samhita the relationship between Vishnu and Lord Shiva is compared to that between milk and yogurt. Milk is converted into yogurt by certain additives, but although milk and yogurt have the same ingredients, they have different functions. Similarly, Lord Shiva is an expansion of Lord Vishnu, yet because of his taking part in the annihilation of the cosmic manifestation, he is considered to be changed, like milk converted into yogurt. In the Puranas it is found that Shiva appears sometimes from the heads of Brahma and sometimes from the head of Vishnu. The annihilator, Rudra, is born from Sankarsana and the ultimate fire to burn the whole creation. In the Vayu Purana there is a description of SadaShiva in one of the Vaikuntha planets. That SadaShiva is a direct expansion of Lord Krsna's form for pastimes. It is said that SadaShiva (Lord Sambhu) is an expansion from the SadaShiva in the Vaikuntha planets (Lord Vishnu) and that his consort, Mahamaya, is an expansion of Rama-devi, or Laksmi. Mahamaya is the origin or birthplace of material nature."

Actually, your quotation from the conversation between Srila Swami Maharaj and Srila Sridhar Maharaj is very appropriate and clear. The only uncertainty there is how Maha-vishnu and Sadashiva can be the same. I think that is made clear in the above purport.

The SadaShiva who is the direct expansion of Maha-vishnu is the Shiva on the Vaikuntha (spiritual) side of the viraja river. The demigod Shiva, or SadaShiva, who resides in the Kailasa on the prakrti side of the Viraja is an expansion of the other Shiva (from the Vaikuntha side).

You also ask, "Also if Lord Shiva is the destroyer at the end of time would that make him immortal." Everyone is immortal.

Your next question:

"Sometimes we hear that Lord Shiva came from between the eyes of Lord Brahma after he got angry with Narada Muni, but in the Brahma Samhita is says Sambhu came from between the eyes of Maha Vishnu."

"Also we hear that in some kalpa’s there is no jiva to take the position of Brahma so Lord Vishnu takes that position. So in the case where Sambhu manifested, was it Lord Vishnu taking the part of Brahma?"

There is a Shiva for every universe whether created by a "jiva" Brahma or a "Vishnu" Brahma.

Brahma is the creator within each universe and is addressed as such by Lord Shiva in the Bhagavatam description of the Daksha Yajna: mahadeva uvaca nagham prajesa balanam varnaye –SB 4.7.2

Srila Swami Maharaja translates this, in part, as "My dear father, Brahma, I do not mind the offenses created by the demigods." The direct translation of praja-isa is "O lord of created beings" when Mahadev addresses Brahma but, Swami Maharaja simply says "father".

The translation continues, "Because these demigods are childish and less intelligent..." Childish comes from the word balanam which means "of the children". Taken in another sense, the verse could be expressed in this way, "My dear father, Brahma, I do not mind the offenses created by the demigods who I regard (varnaye) as your other children."

Because Lord Vishnu will not have direct contact with the mode of ignorance an agent is deputed for this purpose. One of those agents is Shambhu.

"According to Srila Jiva Gosvami, sambhos tu tamo-'dhisthanatvat kajjalamaya-suksma-dipa-sikha-sthaniyasya na tatha samyam: "The sambhu-tattva, or the principle of Lord Shiva, is like a lamp covered with carbon because of his being in charge of the mode of ignorance. The illumination from such a lamp is very minute. Therefore the power of Lord Shiva cannot compare to that of the Vishnu principle." –Adi 2.89

From: Ratnanabha das
Date: Mar 13, 2008
To: B.K. Giri Maharaja
Subject: Re: Question's

Please accept my dandavat pranams Sripd Bhakti Giri Maharaja.
Thank you Maharaja for your reply.

With our preaching work here we encounter many questions from our Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math Philippines branch meetings. But without any sannyasi visiting the Philippines we rely in your good self to put forward an explanation of the philosophy according to our divine masters.

 Actually with the aid of the Internet worldwide it may not be necessary for the sannyasi to travel so much.

I know you are very busy, and must have many emails like mine coming everyday. So I don’t like to waste your time with these questions unless I have research a little myself. And I feel you yourself is also very thorough n research.
In replying to questions.

Sometimes have I seen and heard Srila Govinda Maharaja after being asked a question say "he will ask his Gurudev" and retire to his room, and sometimes coming out straight away or giving and answer after a few days.

There is one question that was asked recently regarding
Lord Shiva Sadäçiva. Rudra.

The question: is Lord Shiva an ordinary demigod. At that point I read from Sri Brahma Samhita verse 15-16-17-43-44-45. This seemed to answer their question, that Lord Shiva was not an ordinary demigod,

Then I studied more, the conversation of our Guru Maharaj Prabhupada and Srila Sridhara Maharaja.

Sridhara Maharaja: It has been already described by Sanatana Gosvämé in Båhad-Bhagavatamåtam. After crossing Brahmaloka,

Prabhupäda: There is Mahesa-dhama, in between.

Sridhara Maharaja: Mahesa-dhama. And the devotee, Siva is devotee.

Prabhupada: Yes, everyone is... Siva's devotional prayer is there in Fourth Canto, about the four sons. What are those?

Sridhara Maharaja: Devi-dhama. Viraja to viraja, nirviseña. The last conception or the highest conception of Devi-dhama is what are the conception of viraja; prakåti ends there... Then begins...

Prabhupäda: Karaëa, karaëarëava.

Sridhara Maharaja: Karaëa, karaëarëava. Then it begins Brahmaloka, the halo of the spiritual world.

Prabhupada: Effulgence. Yes.

Sridhara Maharaja: Spiritual world. And that is also some, some, somewhat nirviseña. And then, after crossing that, the Siva is on the other, higher side or he is in lower side. That is differentiation...

Prabhupada: Siva is...

Sridhara Maharaja: Differentiation on two sides is Siva. This side also, Master of Devi, and this side also. He is searching after something and when the differentiated world ends in Brahmaloka, there also Siva is devotee. This side, Siva is a yogé. He's searching after. And then, there, he's going to meet Narayaëa, to face (indistinct).

Prabhupada: Both sides, he's a devotee.

Sridhara Maharaja: This side, he's not such a devotee. But that is pure devotee on the other side, Vaikuntha.

Prabhupada: Ah. Sadasiva.

Sridhara Maharaja: Sadasiva, Maha-viñëu. On the other side, he's a devotee. Vaiñëavanam yath sambhuù.

Prabhupada: Maha-visnu and Sadasiva, the same.

Sridhara Maharaja: Same.

Prabhupäda: Advaitacarya.

Sridhara Maharaja: Advaitacarya. On the other side. and this side, sometimes revolving. The other day, I told a gentlemen that Çiva is rather the leader of the opposition party.

Prabhupada: Yes, in Daksa-yajna, that is the curse.

Sridhara Maharaja: In Daksa-yajna and in many a place, many demons is encouraged by him. We find.

Prabhupada: But when Pracetas, Pracetas, they met Siva...

Sridhara Maharaja: That, that is that Siva, devotee Siva.

Prabhupada: Oh, they...

Sridhara Maharaja: Markandya also in Bhagavatam, Markandeya worshiped Siva. But that is the devotee Siva. It is clearly mentioned in Bhagavatam. Markandeya's worshiping Siva. But that Siva is the pure devotee of Narayaëa.

Prabhupada: Pracetas, Siva, the Pracetas met in this material world or in the spiritual world? They met in the material world.

Sridhara Maharaja: I can't remember that particular... But Siva, this side also Siva, in the nirviseña, on the lower side of the nirvisesa is also Siva, and the higher side of the nirvisesa is also Siva. Then Narayana.

Prabhupada: Here, he's Bhutanatha, leaders of the atheistic-class of men.

Sridhara Maharaja: Atheistic class. And his paraphernalia is Nandibhåìgi, bhüta, and his, and his eldest son is Vinayaka, and he misguided... The leader of the misguided, Vinayaka, Ganesa.

Prabhupäda: Oh, Vinayaka. Vi-gata...

Sridhara Maharaja: Vinayaka. Not proper nayaka. Vikata-nayakah.

Prabhupada: Vikåta-nayakah.

Sridhara Maharaja: Vinayanikapamode-suddha-prabhu,
(?) that are protected by Krsna, and they, they...

Prabhupada: But in Brahma-samhita Ganesa is described: vighna-nasa.

Sridhara Maharaja: Vighna-nasa, but with the help of Nåsimhadeva on his kumbha.

Prabhupäda: Oh, I see. Yat-pada-pallava-yugaa vinidhaya.

Sridhara Maharaja: With the help of His lotus feet, he's able to... Otherwise, he's Vinayaka.

Prabhupada: (laughs) Vinayaka. Ganesa.

Sridhara Maharaja: (Bengali) posasas ca...

Prabhupada: Misleader.

Sridhara Maharaja: Misleader, misguider, Ganesa, his eldest son. And he give support, Siva. Just as C.R. Das, he encouraged the Subash Bose and the other members of opposition party but he himself was a little common person.

Prabhupada: (Maha-vishnu and Sadasiva, the same)
"Now I was still confused." as to the position of Lord Shiva is he demigod or more then that


Srila Sridhara Maharaja also said Lord Shiva is always looking for something, and chanting the holy names, but Lord Vishnu is complete in him self, and not looking; meaning Lord Vishnu was the number one.

Also if Lord Shiva is the destroyer at the end of time would that make him immortal.

Sometimes we hear that Lord Shiva came from the between the eyes of Lord Brahma after he got angry with Narada Muni, but in the Brahma Samhita is says Sambhu came from the between the eyes of Maha Visnu. Also we hear that in some kalpa’s there is no jiva to take the position of Brahma so Lord Vishnu takes that position. So in the case where Sambhu manifested was it Lord Vishnu taking the part of Brahma

Another example of the greatness of Lord Vishnu I found in the Bhagavatam

On the shore of the river Saraswati, a discussion arose among a group of sages as to which of the three chief Lords-Brahma, Vishnu or Shiva-is the greatest. They deputed Bhragu Muni to investigate the matter.

Bhragu decided to test the lords' tolerance, for that quality is a sure sign of greatness. First he entered the court of Lord Brahma, his father, without offering him any respect. This enraged Brahma, who suppressed his anger because Bhragu was his son. Next Bhragu went to Lord Shiva, his older brother, who rose from his seat to embrace him. But Bhragu rejected the embrace, calling Shiva a deviant heretic. Just as Shiva was about to kill Bhragu with his trident, Goddess Pervade interceded and pacified her husband. Next Bhragu went to Vaikuntha to test Lord Narayana. Going up to the Lord, who was lying with His head on the lap of the goddess of fortune, Bhragu kicked His chest. But instead of becoming angry, both the Lord and His consort stood up and offered Bhragu respects. "Welcome," said the Lord. "Please sit down and rest awhile. Kindly forgive us, dear master, for not noticing your arrival." When Bhragu went back to the assembly of sages and told them all that had happened, they concluded that Lord Vishnu is certainly supreme.

with kind regards to you good self

 Ratnanabha das

ps. the last audios you put on your web site are very good thanks